The "Plain Vanilla Web" advocates for a simpler, faster, and more resilient web by embracing basic HTML, CSS, and progressive enhancement. It criticizes the over-reliance on complex JavaScript frameworks and bloated websites, arguing they hinder accessibility, performance, and maintainability. The philosophy champions prioritizing content over elaborate design, focusing on core web technologies, and building sites that degrade gracefully across different browsers and devices. Ultimately, it promotes a return to the web's original principles of universality and accessibility by favoring lightweight solutions that prioritize user experience and efficient delivery of information.
WebAssembly 2.0 is a significant upgrade to the WebAssembly platform, enhancing its capabilities while maintaining backwards compatibility. This version introduces several key features like fixed-width SIMD for improved performance in multimedia and computational tasks, bulk memory operations for efficient data manipulation, and relaxed SIMD to offer portability across diverse hardware. Additionally, reference types enable direct manipulation of JavaScript objects and other WebAssembly modules, fostering better integration with existing web technologies. These advancements, along with improved exception handling and enhanced thread control, further solidify WebAssembly's position as a powerful and versatile technology for web development and beyond.
Hacker News users discussed the potential impact and features of WASM 2.0. Several commenters expressed excitement about improved performance, particularly regarding garbage collection and interface types, hoping it would pave the way for wider adoption, including GUI applications and better integration with existing languages. Some discussed the complexity of the specification and the challenges of implementation. A recurring theme was the desire for simplified integration with JavaScript and the browser DOM, a key factor in WASM's broader usability. There were also inquiries and discussions about specific technical aspects like tail calls, exceptions, and memory management. Some users expressed caution, wanting to see real-world performance improvements before getting too enthusiastic.
The dominant web browsers (Chrome, Safari, Edge, and Firefox) rely heavily on revenue generated by including Google Search as their default. New regulations aimed at breaking up Big Tech's monopolies, particularly the EU's Digital Markets Act (DMA) and the US's American Innovation and Choice Online Act (AICOA), will require these browsers to offer alternative default search engines through choice screens. This is projected to significantly reduce Google's payments to browsers, potentially by as much as 80%, as users will likely opt for cheaper or free alternatives. This poses a substantial threat to browser funding and could impact future development and innovation.
HN commenters largely discuss the implications of the impending "Privacy Sandbox" changes on browser funding, with many skeptical of the author's 80% figure. Some argue the impact will be less severe than predicted, citing alternative revenue streams like subscriptions, built-in services, and enterprise contracts. Others point out that while ad revenue may decrease, costs associated with ad tech will also decrease, potentially offsetting some of the losses. A few express concern about the potential consolidation of the browser market and the implications for user privacy if browser vendors are forced to find new, potentially exploitative, revenue models. The overall sentiment appears to be one of cautious observation rather than outright panic.
The W3C encourages participation in its new Exploration Interest Group (EIG). This group serves as the starting point for potential new web standards, providing a venue for open discussion and brainstorming around emerging technologies. Anyone can join the EIG to share ideas, identify use cases, and contribute to the early stages of standard development, ensuring the web's future relevance and utility. By joining, individuals can help shape the direction of the web and collaborate with experts from diverse backgrounds on topics spanning various domains. The EIG aims to foster innovation and collaboration, providing a platform for incubating new web technologies before they progress to formal standardization work.
Hacker News users discussed the bureaucratic nature of the W3C and its potential impact on the Exploration Interest Group. Some expressed skepticism, viewing the group as another layer of process that might stifle innovation or be dominated by large corporate interests. Others were more optimistic, suggesting that early participation could offer a valuable opportunity to shape future web standards and ensure diverse voices are heard. The potential for meaningful impact versus "just another meeting" was a recurring theme. Some commenters also highlighted the importance of considering existing standards and avoiding redundancy. A few users shared personal experiences with W3C processes, both positive and negative, further illustrating the mixed reactions to the announcement.
The <select> element, long a styling holdout, is finally getting much-needed CSS customization capabilities in Chromium-based browsers. Developers can now style aspects like the dropdown arrow (using appearance: none and pseudo-elements), open state, and even the listbox itself, offering greater control over its visual presentation. This enables better integration with overall site design and improved user experience without resorting to JavaScript workarounds or custom elements. While some pseudo-elements are browser-prefixed, the changes pave the way for more consistently styled and accessible dropdown menus across the web.
Hacker News users generally expressed cautious optimism about the ability to finally style <select> elements with CSS. Several pointed out that this has been a long-requested feature and lamented the previous difficulty in customizing dropdowns. Some praised the detailed explanation in the blog post, while others worried about browser compatibility and the potential for inconsistencies across different implementations. A few users discussed specific styling challenges they'd encountered, like styling the dropdown arrow or achieving consistent behavior across operating systems. There was some concern about the potential for developers to create confusing or inaccessible custom selects, but also acknowledgment that the feature offers powerful new design possibilities.
Global Privacy Control (GPC) is a browser or extension setting that signals a user's intent to opt out of the sale of their personal information, as defined by various privacy laws like CCPA and GDPR. Websites and businesses that respect GPC should interpret it as a "Do Not Sell" request and suppress the sale of user data. While not legally mandated everywhere, adopting GPC provides a standardized way for users to express their privacy preferences across the web, offering greater control over their data. Widespread adoption by browsers and websites could simplify privacy management for both users and businesses and contribute to a more privacy-respecting internet ecosystem.
HN commenters discuss the effectiveness and future of Global Privacy Control (GPC). Some express skepticism about its impact, noting that many websites simply ignore it, while others believe it's a valuable tool, particularly when combined with legal pressure and browser enforcement. The potential for legal action based on ignoring GPC signals is debated, with some arguing that it provides strong grounds for enforcement, while others highlight the difficulty of proving damages. The lack of clear legal precedents is mentioned as a significant hurdle. Commenters also discuss the technicalities of GPC implementation, including the different ways websites can interpret and respond to the signal, and the potential for false positives. The broader question of how to balance privacy with personalized advertising is also raised.
Open-UI aims to establish and maintain an open, interoperable standard for UI components and primitives across frameworks and libraries. This initiative seeks to improve developer experience by enabling greater code reuse, simplifying cross-framework collaboration, and fostering a more robust and accessible web ecosystem. By defining shared specifications and promoting their adoption, Open-UI strives to streamline UI development and reduce fragmentation across the JavaScript landscape.
HN commenters express cautious optimism about Open UI, praising the standardization effort for web components but also raising concerns. Several highlight the difficulty of achieving true cross-framework compatibility, questioning whether Open UI can genuinely bridge the gaps between React, Vue, Angular, etc. Others point to the history of similar initiatives failing to gain widespread adoption due to framework lock-in and the rapid evolution of the web development landscape. Some express skepticism about the project's governance and the potential influence of browser vendors. A few commenters see Open UI as a potential solution to the "island problem" of web components, hoping it will improve interoperability and reduce the need for framework-specific wrappers. However, the prevailing sentiment is one of "wait and see," with many wanting to observe practical implementations and community uptake before fully endorsing the project.
The Chrome team is working towards enabling customization of the <select> element using the new <selectmenu> element. This upcoming feature allows developers to replace the browser's default dropdown styling with custom HTML, offering greater flexibility and control over the appearance and functionality of dropdown menus. Developers will be able to integrate richer interactions, accessibility features, and more complex layouts within the select element, all while preserving the semantic meaning and native behavior like keyboard navigation and screen reader compatibility. This enhancement aims to address the longstanding developer pain point of limited styling options for the <select> element, opening up opportunities for more visually appealing and user-friendly form controls.
Hacker News users generally expressed frustration with the <select> element's historical limitations and welcomed the proposed changes for customization. Several commenters pointed out the difficulties in styling <select> cross-browser, leading to reliance on JavaScript workarounds and libraries like Choices.js. Some expressed skepticism about the proposed solution's complexity and potential performance impact, suggesting simpler alternatives like allowing shadow DOM styling. Others questioned the need for such extensive customization, arguing for consistency and accessibility over visual flair. A few users highlighted specific use cases, such as multi-select with custom item rendering, where the proposed changes would be beneficial. Overall, the sentiment leans towards cautious optimism, acknowledging the potential improvements while remaining wary of potential drawbacks.
Eric Meyer reflects on the ten years since the release of his book, "Designing for Performance," lamenting the lack of significant progress in web performance. While browsers have gotten faster, web page bloat has outpaced these improvements, resulting in a net loss for users. He points to ever-increasing JavaScript execution times and the prevalence of third-party scripts as primary culprits. This stagnation is particularly frustrating given the heightened importance of performance for accessibility, affordability, and the environment. Meyer concludes with a call to action, urging developers to prioritize performance and break the cycle of accepting ever-growing page weights as inevitable.
Commenters on Hacker News largely agree with Eric Meyer's sentiment that the past decade of web development has been stagnant, focusing on JavaScript frameworks and single-page apps (SPAs) to the detriment of the core web platform. Many express frustration with the complexity and performance issues of modern web development, echoing Meyer's points about the dominance of JavaScript and the lack of focus on fundamental improvements. Some commenters discuss the potential of Web Components and the resurgence of server-side rendering as signs of positive change, though others are more pessimistic about the future, citing the influence of large tech companies and the inherent inertia of the current ecosystem. A few dissenting voices argue that SPAs offer legitimate benefits and that the web has evolved naturally, but they are in the minority. The overall tone is one of disappointment with the current state of web development and a desire for a return to simpler, more performant approaches.
Cloudflare is reportedly blocking access to certain websites for users of Pale Moon and other less common browsers like Basilisk and Otter Browser. The issue seems to stem from Cloudflare's bot detection system incorrectly identifying these browsers as bots due to their unusual User-Agent strings. This leads to users being presented with a CAPTCHA challenge, which, in some cases, is unpassable, effectively denying access. The author of the post, a Pale Moon user, expresses frustration with this situation, especially since Cloudflare offers no apparent mechanism to report or resolve the issue for affected users of niche browsers.
Hacker News users discussed Cloudflare's blocking of Pale Moon and other less common browsers, primarily focusing on the reasons behind the block and its implications. Some speculated that the block stemmed from Pale Moon's outdated TLS/SSL protocols creating security risks or excessive load on Cloudflare's servers. Others criticized Cloudflare for what they perceived as anti-competitive behavior, harming browser diversity and unfairly impacting users of niche browsers. The lack of clear communication from Cloudflare about the block drew negative attention, with users expressing frustration over the lack of transparency and the difficulty in troubleshooting the issue. A few commenters offered potential workarounds, including using a VPN or adjusting browser settings, but there wasn't a universally effective solution. The overall sentiment reflected concern about the increasing centralization of internet infrastructure and the potential for large companies like Cloudflare to exert undue influence over web access.
The CSS contain property allows developers to isolate a portion of the DOM, improving performance by limiting the scope of browser calculations like layout, style, and paint. By specifying values like layout, style, paint, and size, authors can tell the browser that changes within the contained element won't affect its surroundings, or vice versa. This allows the browser to optimize rendering and avoid unnecessary recalculations, leading to smoother and faster web experiences, particularly for complex or dynamic layouts. The content keyword offers the strongest form of containment, encompassing all the other values, while strict and size offer more granular control.
Hacker News users discussed the usefulness of the contain CSS property, particularly for performance optimization by limiting the scope of layout, style, and paint calculations. Some highlighted its power in isolating components and improving rendering times, especially in complex web applications. Others pointed out the potential for misuse and the importance of understanding its various values (layout, style, paint, size, and content) to achieve desired effects. A few users mentioned specific use cases, like efficiently handling large lists or off-screen elements, and wished for wider adoption and better browser support for some of its features, like containment for subtree layout changes. Some expressed that containment is a powerful but often overlooked tool for optimizing web page performance.
Summary of Comments ( 621 )
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43954896
Hacker News users generally lauded the "Plain Vanilla Web" concept, praising its simplicity and focus on core web technologies. Several commenters pointed out the benefits of faster loading times, improved accessibility, and reduced reliance on JavaScript frameworks, which they see as often bloated and unnecessary. Some expressed nostalgia for the earlier, less complex web, while others emphasized the practical advantages of this approach for both users and developers. A few voiced concerns about the potential limitations of foregoing modern web frameworks, particularly for complex applications. However, the prevailing sentiment was one of strong support for the author's advocacy of a simpler, more performant web experience. Several users shared examples of their own plain vanilla web projects and resources.
The Hacker News post titled "Plain Vanilla Web" discussing the blog post at plainvanillaweb.com generated a modest number of comments, primarily focusing on the merits and drawbacks of the "plain vanilla" web approach advocated by the author.
Several commenters expressed appreciation for the simplicity and speed of basic HTML websites, highlighting the benefits of fast loading times, improved accessibility, and resistance to breakage as web technologies evolve. They lamented the increasing complexity and bloat of modern websites, agreeing with the author's sentiment that simpler sites often offer a superior user experience. Some users shared anecdotal examples of preferring simpler websites for specific tasks or in situations with limited bandwidth.
A recurring theme in the comments was the acknowledgement that while the "plain vanilla" approach is ideal in certain contexts, it's not a one-size-fits-all solution. Commenters pointed out that complex web applications and interactive features necessitate more sophisticated technologies. The discussion touched on the balance between simplicity and functionality, with some suggesting that the ideal lies in finding a middle ground – leveraging modern web technologies judiciously without sacrificing performance and accessibility.
One commenter highlighted the resurgence of interest in simpler web design principles, linking it to broader trends like the rise of Gemini and other alternative internet protocols. This perspective suggests that the desire for a less cluttered and more efficient web experience is gaining traction.
A few commenters offered practical tips and resources related to building simple, fast-loading websites. They mentioned specific tools and techniques for optimizing performance and minimizing unnecessary code.
While largely agreeing with the core message of the blog post, the comment section also included some dissenting opinions. Some argued that dismissing all modern web technologies is impractical and that the "plain vanilla" approach is too limiting for many use cases. These commenters emphasized the importance of choosing the right tools for the job, acknowledging the value of both simple and complex web development approaches.
Overall, the Hacker News discussion reflected a nuanced understanding of the trade-offs involved in web development. While many commenters expressed nostalgia for the simpler days of the web and appreciated the benefits of the "plain vanilla" approach, they also recognized the limitations of this philosophy in the context of the modern internet. The conversation highlighted the ongoing search for a balance between simplicity, functionality, and performance in web design.