The internet, originally designed for efficient information retrieval, is increasingly mimicking the disorienting and consumerist design of shopping malls, a phenomenon known as the Gruen Transfer. Websites, particularly social media platforms, employ tactics like infinite scroll, algorithmically curated content, and strategically placed ads to keep users engaged and subtly nudge them towards consumption. This creates a digital environment optimized for distraction and impulsive behavior, sacrificing intentional navigation and focused information seeking for maximized "dwell time" and advertising revenue. The author argues this trend is eroding the internet's original purpose and transforming it into a sprawling, consumerist digital mall.
The blog post "What if we made advertising illegal?" explores the potential societal benefits of a world without advertising. It argues that advertising manipulates consumers, fuels overconsumption and unsustainable growth, promotes harmful products, and pollutes public spaces and our minds. By eliminating advertising, the author suggests we could reclaim public space, reduce consumption and waste, foster more meaningful cultural production, and encourage healthier lifestyles. This shift would necessitate new funding models for media and cultural institutions, potentially leading to more diverse and democratic forms of content creation.
HN users generally support the idea of banning or heavily regulating advertising, citing its manipulative nature, negative impact on mental health, contribution to consumerism, and distortion of media. Some propose alternative funding models for media and other services, such as subscriptions, micropayments, or public funding. Several commenters acknowledge the difficulty of implementing such a ban, particularly given the entrenched power of the advertising industry and the potential for black markets. A few dissenting voices argue that advertising plays a vital role in informing consumers and supporting free services, and that a ban would be overly restrictive and harmful to the economy. Several discuss the potential unintended consequences of such a drastic measure.
The author avoids political discussions with friends to preserve those relationships. They believe such conversations are often unproductive, driven by ego and the desire to be right rather than genuine understanding. The potential for disagreement to escalate into personal attacks and damage close bonds outweighs any perceived benefit of sharing political views. Instead, the author prioritizes maintaining positive connections with friends, focusing on shared interests and enjoyable interactions over potentially divisive political debates.
HN commenters generally agree with the author's premise that political discussions with friends are often unproductive and damaging. Several highlight the lack of nuanced understanding and the prevalence of tribalism in such conversations. Some commenters point out that political discussions are valuable within specific contexts, such as with like-minded individuals focused on actionable change or within structured debates with clear rules. Others emphasize the importance of choosing one's battles and suggest that focusing on shared values and personal connection can be more fruitful than arguing about politics. A few express skepticism about the feasibility of entirely avoiding political discussions in certain social circles. The top comment criticizes the author's approach as naive, arguing that ignoring politics doesn't make it go away and can be a form of privilege.
The blog post "Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)" argues that when seeking agreement or buy-in, framing requests negatively—asking for objections rather than approval—can be more effective. This "opt-out" approach lowers the barrier to engagement, making it easier for people to voice concerns they might otherwise keep to themselves. By explicitly inviting dissent, you gather valuable feedback, uncover hidden obstacles, and ultimately increase the likelihood of genuine agreement and successful implementation down the line. This proactive approach to identifying and addressing potential problems can lead to more robust solutions and stronger commitment from all involved parties.
Hacker News users discuss the nuances of the "ask for no" strategy. Several commenters point out that it's not about literally asking for "no," but rather framing the request in a way that makes it easy for someone to decline without feeling guilty or pressured. This approach is seen as particularly useful in sales, negotiations, and managing teams, fostering better relationships by respecting autonomy. Some argue it's a form of manipulation, while others defend it as a way to create psychological safety. The discussion also touches on cultural differences, noting that the directness of "asking for no" might not translate well in all environments. A few users share personal anecdotes of how this strategy has led to better outcomes, emphasizing the importance of sincerity and genuine respect for the other party's decision.
Summary of Comments ( 162 )
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43769936
HN commenters largely agree with the article's premise that website design, particularly in e-commerce, increasingly uses manipulative "dark patterns" reminiscent of the Gruen Transfer in physical retail. Several point out the pervasiveness of these tactics, extending beyond shopping to social media and general web browsing. Some commenters offer specific examples, like cookie banners and endless scrolling, while others discuss the psychological underpinnings of these design choices. A few suggest potential solutions, including regulations and browser extensions to combat manipulative design, though skepticism remains about their effectiveness against the economic incentives driving these practices. Some debate centers on whether users are truly "manipulated" or simply making rational choices within a designed environment.
The Hacker News post "The Gruen Transfer is consuming the internet" has generated a moderate amount of discussion with a variety of perspectives on the article's core argument. While not an overwhelming number of comments, several contribute interesting points and counterpoints.
Several commenters agree with the author's premise, that the design of many websites and online platforms intentionally disorients and distracts users, similar to the "Gruen transfer" effect observed in shopping malls. One commenter highlights the pervasiveness of this design philosophy, suggesting it's not limited to e-commerce but extends to social media and other online spaces, creating an environment optimized for engagement over user experience. They lament the loss of simple, straightforward web design in favor of these more manipulative tactics.
Another commenter draws a parallel to the tactics employed by casinos, emphasizing the deliberate use of confusion and sensory overload to keep users engaged and spending. They point to the constant stream of notifications and dynamically updating content as examples of these techniques in action online.
However, not all commenters fully agree with the article's thesis. Some argue that while some platforms may employ such tactics, attributing it to a deliberate and widespread "Gruen transfer" effect is an oversimplification. They suggest that many design choices stem from A/B testing and iterative development, focusing on maximizing engagement metrics, rather than a conscious effort to disorient users. This leads to a discussion about the difference between intentional manipulation and the unintended consequences of data-driven design.
One commenter points out that the original concept of the Gruen transfer was itself controversial and debated, cautioning against applying it too broadly to the online world. They suggest that the analogy, while compelling, might not fully capture the nuances of online user behavior and platform design.
A few commenters also offer potential solutions and alternatives. One suggests supporting platforms and developers prioritizing user experience over engagement metrics. Another mentions browser extensions and tools that can help minimize distractions and simplify the online experience.
Overall, the comments section provides a valuable discussion around the article's central theme, exploring both the validity of the "Gruen transfer" analogy and the complexities of online platform design. While there's general agreement that many online spaces are designed to maximize engagement, often at the expense of user experience, the degree to which this is intentional and comparable to the Gruen transfer remains a point of contention.